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palestrina64
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« on: October 07, 2009, 07:00:06 pm » |
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While listening to Bach's Cantata 66 (first choir) http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/3/31/IMSLP01220-BWV0066.pdfI found what it looked like straight (bad) parallel 8ves between bass and violins (playing in unison) + trumpet! In this link, the passage in question is on the first page, mss. 7-8. The notes forming the parallelism are G# and the following A (the same thing also appears transposed later on in the score). After a "double take" at it, I realized that there was actually no mistake here, only a very clever take on the idea, which justified the ACTUAL and REAL aural feeling of parallel 8ves (actually, in contrary motion). No mistake: you can hear them AND see them... or can't you? ;-) It looks like Bach found a way of making them legal, so to speak. Anybody up to the (small) challenge of theoretically justifying those parallel 8ves? No prices, sorry. I'm just curious to see if some of us think along the same lines (you ol' folks out there :-) Gianluca |
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« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 07:17:58 pm by palestrina64 »
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SimenN
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2009, 10:46:21 am » |
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That is a paralell, the violins g# is not on the beat? is there another rule for that? like a passing note? The trumpet and bass are parallel, G# -> A even if they go in contrary motion. My guess is, the rules are to be praticed but, if the melodic material requiers a parallel to give the voice its own character, so do it. Mabye that is what bach did? i dont know why he put it there. Parallel is a paralell, there is not possible to say that one is not a parallel, even bach made mistakes hehe  |
I draw a line at Mozarts death
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palestrina64
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2009, 01:13:36 pm » |
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That is a paralell, the violins g# is not on the beat? is there another rule for that? like a passing note? The trumpet and bass are parallel, G# -> A even if they go in contrary motion. My guess is, the rules are to be praticed but, if the melodic material requiers a parallel to give the voice its own character, so do it. Mabye that is what bach did? i dont know why he put it there. Parallel is a paralell, there is not possible to say that one is not a parallel, even bach made mistakes hehe Hi! Like I said: it looks and sounds like parallel 8ves, but it is perfectly justified (it's almost like quantum physics, it is and it is not at the same time...) by the fact that.... I'll wait until tomorrow for someone else to try to answer it ;-) |
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palestrina64
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« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 10:54:23 am » |
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While listening to Bach's Cantata 66 (first choir) http://imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/3/31/IMSLP01220-BWV0066.pdfI found what it looked like straight (bad) parallel 8ves between bass and violins (playing in unison) + trumpet! In this link, the passage in question is on the first page, mss. 7-8. The notes forming the parallelism are G# and the following A (the same thing also appears transposed later on in the score). After a "double take" at it, I realized that there was actually no mistake here, only a very clever take on the idea, which justified the ACTUAL and REAL aural feeling of parallel 8ves (actually, in contrary motion). No mistake: you can hear them AND see them... or can't you? ;-) It looks like Bach found a way of making them legal, so to speak. Anybody up to the (small) challenge of theoretically justifying those parallel 8ves? No prices, sorry. I'm just curious to see if some of us think along the same lines (you ol' folks out there :-) Gianluca I guess this forum it's been SLOOOOOOOW lately. I blame myself too for that...:-) Anyhow, here's why I think those 8ves are... good. 1) Mss. 7-8, bass: these two measures (and others before) show a "compound line", where the first two notes of ms. 7 (B, D) resolve in ms. 8 to (lower) A and E respectively, while the G# of ms. 7 resolves to the SECOND BEAT (higher) A of ms. 8. 2) Therefore, the first (lower) A of ms. 8 in the bass is NOT the resolution for the preceding G#, but the resolution of the B. Which means that, although there's a G#-A octaves between violins and bass, they don't count, since they involve "other voices". Crazy, but true... I can e-mail you a written-out version of the above, which will be much clearer... I hope! G |
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« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 06:08:32 pm by palestrina64 »
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SimenN
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 06:30:16 pm » |
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Ohh, i wonder if Bach thought of that?
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I draw a line at Mozarts death
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palestrina64
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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 02:16:18 pm » |
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Ohh, i wonder if Bach thought of that?
Of course he did! I wasn't certainly looking for an excuse for him. This is Bach.... teaching us!! No mistake here: he knew exactly what he was doing. You just have to think like a composer for every little thing :-) Ciao!! |
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SimenN
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2009, 01:01:24 pm » |
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Hmm, i did not quite understand it! hehe, so there are some odd exeptions. |
I draw a line at Mozarts death
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palestrina64
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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2009, 01:49:34 pm » |
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So is it legal because of the contrary motion???
HI. No, really... it is good because it involves two different voices "hidden" in the compound line of the bass. |
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SimenN
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« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2009, 09:04:57 am » |
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Hmm, oki! I could not see that |
I draw a line at Mozarts death
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